share.triangle.com - School diversity: Why does Wake keep trying? - Comments

School Diversity

yasyael — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:49:42 -0500

I was going to stay out of this debate mainly because I do not live in Wake County, but then I realized that these decisions affect me because I am an educator in Wake County. I think that this policy should be revisited for two reasons.

1. Moving a child consistently year after year cannot be beneficial to their sense of stability.

2. Busing students has not improved the achievement gap and I agree with one of the comments when they stated that sending a student miles away from home does limit their ability to participate in after school activities. It especially affects the low income student because usually their parent cannot afford nor do they have the means to drive miles everyday to pick them up. Sure Wake can provide transportation and they do in most cases but again I agree with another respondent, that they are spending more in gas because buses have to travel further.

However, I am not agreeing with Mr. Margiotta completely because history and present inner city schools in larger cities and rural areas have proven that these schools are not equally funded or staffed. If there was someone to ensure that neighborhood or community schools would be equally funded and staffed then I would be all for this idea, but I am highly skeptical that this will happen.

My final thought on all of this is that I wish parents and the school board would be this passionate about working together to improve the educational system for all students instead of only being concerned about themselves.

INCOME AND LEARNING ABILITY

kayak9 — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:23:40 -0500

I would like to hear opinions on the MAJOR reasons why "low income" students do not do as well in school.

I take this as a fact since I see it so often in the Press. Having been a low income student myself (many years ago), and having parents with very little education themselves, I do not understand the relationship assumed between income and learing.

UNLESS there is another factor that we dare not discuss?

Currently the Wake Board is

ackilburn — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:07:19 -0500

Currently the Wake Board is opting to not take the time and effort to look at this data. I have been told that one reason is that a controlled study can not be done. I had asked why we can't look at students who have already moved from high poverty to low poverty schools. The NC ABC's calculates an expected growth for varying categories of students as shown by their EOG scores. I was told there was no way to do a controlled study. But I do not see how the "scores" we give the schools is any more of a controlled study when the school's student population fluctuates even without reassignments. And we use these evaluations to label schools. That's pretty serious. So if this level of uncontrolledness is good enought to label schools - effecting funding and more, why can't we live with a similar degree of uncontrolled study to really look at the details of our diverstiy policy. And hey, if it's working, the conversation can become a lot more productive!

How can we impress upon the Wake Board that looking at this data is necessary?

How do we insist this date be looked at?

ackilburn — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:59:59 -0500

How do we gather all the voices of the folks who, like you, want to see the results of a study on how the individual student's performance is effected? The Wake Board is currently opposed to spending efforts to look at this. Margiotti is the only member who is not opposed to looking at this. I have written the board and one member informs me that there is no way to do a controlled study...... but the "score" we give each school is hardly controlled. But we use it. The scores are out there for individual students from the EOGs. We use these scores to evaluate school's aggregate performance.... Let's use them to evaluate how schools are serving individual students.

Wake Policy Dimishes Education Quality Overall

cthomps1 — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:07:18 -0500

I do not believe Wake's policy for diversity by student reassignment is worth the effort.In addition to being an inefficient and ineffective way of spending tax payer funds, it is

actually detrimental to students in the long run. My children have been attending Wakefield Elementary school for 3 years. Reviewing the performance statistics for those 3 years clearly shows that overall school performance has decreasd significantly as a result of Wake's policy. The statistics posted on WCPSS website from 2004-2005 school year through 2006-2007 (the latest year statistics are posted) reveal the following results for Wakefield elementary: school enrollment has grown from 1,088 to 1142 students (an increase of 4.96%), while economically disadvantaged enrollment (as accounted for by the number of economically disadvantaged children taking Grade 3, 4 and 5 tests, thereby giving a lower estimate than actual enrollment since it does not account for grades K-2) has grown from 77 to 111 (an increase of 44.16%). School performance, unfortunately, has suffered: Wakefield's designation has diminished from "Honor School of Excellence" to "School of Distinction". Overall Reading test scores for grades 3, 4 and 5 have decreased by almost 4 points from 93.6 to 89.7. And, most alarmingly, Overall Math test scores for grades 3, 4 and 5 have decreased by over 20 points from >95 to 74.8. If this what Wake's school board calls a “successful” policy, then we might as well all home school our children and save our tax dollars. Instead of addressing the real issue, which is how to bring quality education and good teachers to economically disadvantaged areas and build up those areas for the better, Wake has chosen to dilute the problem by spreading disadvantages across the board and subsequently perpetuating the disadvantages while diminishing the quality of education for all students. I would love to see the results of a study showing the effects of this policy. I’ll bet that it not only reveals that it does not help improve test scores for economically disadvantaged students, but that it does, in fact, decrease performance of other students.

Conservative Dunces or Liberal Elitists

Ammo1231 — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:46:49 -0500

You don't have to be a conservative or liberal to oppose the Wake County bussing policy. You only have to common sense to see that the approach fails to help the children.

Do not try to make this a political football. I'm betting that there are quite a few well educated people from many different political backgrounds that oppose this policy.

I wonder how the School Board Members are benefitting from it. Since there is no logic to the policy, they must be benefitting monetarily in some form or fashion. Perhaps they are receiving money from real estate developers, or they (or their family) themselves own property in low-income, minority neighborhoods.

Study needed

Ammo1231 — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:47:50 -0500

I moved to Wake County after going online and studying school rankings. Unfotunately, the internet did not reveal the fact that Wake County has the policy of bussing minority students into white neighborhoods and vice versa. This policy destroyed neighborhoods in Boston in the 1970's. Those neighborhoods are all minority and deteriorated now. It chased away people with money that were looking for a home for their children to grow up in.

I will leave Wake County, along with many other upper-middle class folk because of this policy. Where do you intend to bus your students when all you have left are minorities? And to all the greedy real estate developers's that refuse to allocate land for neighborhood schools - who are you going to sell to when all the people with money and means leave?

Does diversity work?

gtgearhead — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:51:54 -0500

While looking at the EOG data, let's make sure the EOGs for ALL students have risen! What have we as a society gained if we have continued to make special exceptions for one group at the developmental expense of the other???

The overarching objective of an educational system is to make our community and nation a more globally competitive economy. How will that happen if you do not draw the most out of all students? Eventually all kids must learn that everyone has different gifts and that not everyone's is in the classroom. That's an important life lesson that they're never too young to learn.

Does diversity work?

ackilburn — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:05:51 -0500

We all have so many opinions on the gains and losses associated with the diversity policy, most of which are valid and many of which I feel strongly about on both sides of the argument. We as a county need to look at information that we have but that the board, excluding Margiotti, is refusing to look into. That information is whether or not the F&R population (which is NOT another word for black or hispanic - it IS a word for a child coming out of a home of VERY limited economic means,) actually does learn better once they have been reassigned to a more affluent school. The data is there in the individual students EOGs. We need to look at this because if we show that the reassigned student actually does better, than many of us can support this policy with much more conviction. If we find that their scores do not improve, then we have something else to look at. But at least we will be working with the information we have.

Wake school policy

gtgearhead — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:07:46 -0500

I have just recently relocated my family to NC from SC. My wife and I spent many hours researching Wake & Johnston County schools as well as speaking to fellow parents in this area. After all that, we decided that upper Johnston County's schools were the best option. Although Wake schools appeared better on paper, many things contributed towards our decision to settle in Johnston County.

We could not in good faith subject our elementary age children to extensive bus rides likely along the beltline, assigned to different track schedules and even different schools. These are very formitive years in a child's education and they should have the stability of familiar settings, school leaders, fellow students and school surroundings.

My oldest child has advanced skills for his age, testing and performing in his class multiple grade levels above his age. We chose our home's location based on the fact that he would receive the best education in both tangible and intagible areas.

Statistics show that the most people with children choose their home location based on schools and are willing to pay higher taxes for such advantages. If the council seeks equality in school population distribution, then we should seek equality in our property taxes. Fair is fair, right?

My brother, who lived in Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) until last year finally gave up on that area's failed social experiment. They moved to the neighboring county and are much happier.

It is deeply disturbing that (sic) leaders like Mr. Schmitt would choose to compromise the future of our nation for short-sighted economic gain. He ought to be ashamed of himself. This social experiment needs to be proven effective with data or abandoned. Cut out the rhetoric for our children's sake!!

Reality Check

froghollow — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:53:20 -0500

Two letters to the editor("Just Say No to Busing", "Focus on Children") and one Opinion piece ( "The Price of Picking Schools with Poverty") in Fridays NandO were blatantly truthful, strikingly candid, and contradictory. The letters hit the nail on the head and the Opinion piece by Burgetta E. Wheeler was heartwarming. I agree with all three.

One letter writer referred to the "gang mentality" bused into our schools. She's absolutely correct! And it starts in kindergarten! By first grade, these younger siblings of active gang members are gang-member wannabes with finely- honed body language, vocabulary, and anti-social attitudes. They will threaten to sue you if you touch them, tell you they can get someone to beat you up, give the finger to all who oppose them, and steal with skills that Fagin himself would envy!

Another letter writer referred to research that shows tha a school's academic performance drops when it has too many low-income students. Gee! I wonder why?This writer supports teaching each child regardless of his background, instead of busing them all over the county for the sake of that sacred cow, diversity. Makes sense!

Wheeler, on the other hand paints a tender, caring portrait of elementary children with hourly behavioral reports, knowledge of oral sex, prize-fighter punching ability, and cracker over toy choices because of hunger! Her rational on this last one is a bit over-the-top as I'm sure the child already had eaten her free breakfast and free lunch! Wheeler views putting all these problems together in one school as a social nightmare. She's right; it would be, and already is...just visit any school with an extremely high percentage of low-income students.

But Wheeler's thinking is terribly flawed! She naively thinks that putting students together in " high-poverty clusters would lower their chances of beating the odds" while placing them in a "world where fewer people are ravaged" is "best for all of us." Tell THAT to the parents whose children have to witness and be victims of this anti-social behavior on a daily basis! Whose children lose valuable instructional time because their teachers are filling out hourly reports, disciplining unruly students, and literally protecting students from bodily harm Tell THAT to the parents of the children who once got large wads of spit dropped on their heads in the stairwell because it was the latest fad in insulting your enemies!. What parent willingly places his children in such an environment?

Wheeler's awarenesses are keen. She just has no reality check. I invite her and any other "diversity cheerleaders to check the following:

1. "Low-income students" do not need to be insulted by being told the only way they can get the best education is to be in the same classroom with" affluent" students.

2. All children like to be around their friends; not to be told who their friends should be.

3. "Affluent" students can also be very challenging.

4. Yes, the world is diverse, but forced busing often creates unreaiistic social structures that do not exist in the so-called real world.

5. Students who share life experiences support, help, and mentor each other. Allow them to share positive experiences together.

Get a GRIP!! There is school and then there is reality! Let's bridge the gap!

Let's Just Admit It's About the Money

wakedup — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:52:58 -0500

This is an outdated plan, based upon outdated theories... rooted unfortunately not in the "higher calling" of ensuring economic balance, and diversity! This School Board is addicted to Free and Reduced LUNCH Dollars!

Let's call it what it is! GREED! The people of Wake County did not want to pay for a higher bonds! WHY? Because the School Board did a terrible job of presenting their case.

IMHO, there are those on the Board, and in the School system who see their "calling" as Social Engineering. Because they WANT this across town bussing system to continue... they did a half hearted job of presenting a "real" request for funds to the people of Wake County! GREED!

We need a smaller School Board, with a fundimentally different agenda. One for the good people of Garner, one for North Raleigh, one for Cary - 5 to 7 School Boards who will direct the funds, tjhe resources and the children to create an environment that is VERIFIABLY doing the best job of educating our children!

misguided social engineering

StopForcedBusing — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:57:19 -0500

I think that we are finally seeing the last dying gasp of affimative action programs in this country. Let's face it, using code words and phrases like "percentage of children eligible for free lunch" really means African Americans and illegal immigrants. Liberal elistists are saying that these children cannot learn unless they are surrounded by white people. I find this idea to be offensive.

Wake County claims to care for all children, but where is the data showing that the white kid getting bused out of his neighborhood to Southeast High School is going to get a better education? The utter arrogance of school board members who say "I don't need data to see that it works". Enough of this liberal busing nonsense! Our children do not deserve to be test subjects for their failing social engineering projects!

School Diversity is a Failure

ms5336 — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:51:59 -0500

I challenged the school board to put the Diversity Policy up for a vote by the taxpayers of Wake County. In my opinion, the vast majority of parents would vote against diversity and they would support local neighborhood schools.

There has been numerous comments in the N&O from low income parents indicating that they do not support having their children transported from areas like Southeast Raleigh to Panther Creek or Green Hope in Cary. How can one get involved in after school programs such as sports or band?

My two middle school boys are not even going to the same school. My eighth grader has to get up at 5:15am every morning so he can be on his bus at 5:50am. He travels 21 miles to Lufkin Road Middle School in Apex. My sixth grader gets up at 6am for his 15 mile journey to East Cary Middle School. We have schools that a few miles away from our home! Do we live in Apex or Cary? No, our home is in Raleigh near the airport. Our experience has not been a good one.

Diversity has failed now that Wake County has become so large. Why don't our elected officials here the pleas of the thousands of people who oppose the program and adapt a local neighborhood school policy.

Michael Swanson, A Concerned Parent

Wake school policy

raycareaga — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:47:07 -0500

From an economic perspetive, it is a simple matter of making a decision.

There are real costs and "fuzzy" results, ergo a no-brainer. Cut the costs, and either verify or disprove the results.

Middle ground: Let the affected parties decide. Send home ballots with the children, and let the parents decide one way or the other.

School diversity: Why does Wake keep trying?

robwaters7012 — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:46:20 -0500

Most other districts have reverted to neighborhood schools. Is Wake’s effort to maintain economic balance worth it?

The Wake County school system has sought for more than 30 years to keep a balanced enrollment at every campus in the county.

It’s not easy. Thousands of families’ lives are disrupted every year by the school reassignments the district must make to accommodate new students (enrollment has more than doubled since 1990) and to maintain the desired economic balance.

As the district engages in the latest round of wrangling over reassignments, school and community leaders defend the policy as necessary for educational quality. Critics say that they’re a heavy-handed form of social engineering and that there’s no evidence that they lead to improved student performance.

Most other districts have reverted to neighborhood schools. Is Wake’s effort to maintain economic balance worth it? The Wake County school system has sought for more…