share.triangle.com - Bringing mass transit to the Triangle - Comments

$5.00 gas could help change minds

RickW — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:15:37 -0400

No point in paving everything if everyone can't afford gas. Lots of Europeans don't even have cars. The spend their money on really cool vacations (they call them holidays).

As long as people would

Mitchell Orbatell — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:53:59 -0400

As long as people would rather drive their own cars, they are not going to use public transportation. As long as people can afford their own cars, it is almost certain that they will. I agree with Jeff that improvements of the roads need to be top priority unless there is some method devise to get people to despise their cars.

A disabled Quaker artist and ex-phd student agrees

snowolff57 — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:00:21 -0400

I am a 51 year old disabled woman who does not drive. I have been a birthright Quaker all my life and lived at the poverty level in order to not pay war taxes in Albany, NY most of my life. I went to Georgia Tech, and earned my MS in Information Design in my thirties. Those were the early days of the internet and we all were making web pages. I made one called www.QuakerWedding.com. Over the years, all I did was create Quaker Wedding Certificates by hand for weddings.

Although I was poor because of my personal convictions, I've fallen through the hole in the safety net. I believe that because I was poor all my life I'm still poor now, I am treated very badly by the 'system' which has learned to treat poor people badly and thinks nothing of it.

I came to NC to go to NCSU so I could earn a Phd and finally work in my field and get a 'real job'. I was engaged to be married to a Philosophy professor when I had a subharacnoid hemmorage, fell into a coma and became stupid! I lost everything because I lived on a road in Knightdale with no public transportation. Also, because, frankly, when you have a brain injury, it changes your personality so much that the people that once loved you, don't know who you are.

It wasn't long before I'd alienated most of my family and was left with few friends. Finally, my current Guardian managed to sell my house, pays my bills and gives me just enough money to live on, but will not allow me to have a mailing address since she's afraid I'll get a credit card offer and fall into debt. Unfortunately, without a mailing address, I cannot work as an artist to earn any money.

I have been moved into one of the very few apartment complexes that is on a busline. Most of my neighbors are poor, black or Hispanic. The only thing I have in common with them is that I am also poor and powerless. I am desperately lonely and have very few people I can talk to. My neighbors mostly come over to borrow $5 here and there because they've found I'm an easy touch.

In the early years of my brain injury, I was on Medicaid, a program so strict that I could not earn even $20 or my brother, who was my Legal Guardian, would go to jail. I was considered incompetent, and therefore not legally liable.

Still, I wanted to do art. My family told me if I even said the word 'certificate' they'd never speak to me again. I experienced 'learned helplessness' in that I became afraid to do artwork. I tried to do art, but the stress almost killed me and my fiance, who lost 25 lbs, suffered black-outs, blood clots, hallucinated and finally moved out. He was terrified that he'd be arrested for my 'defrauding the US government' if they discovered I was secretly trying to do artwork. Of course, I never did complete anything, but I lost him!

Today, I'm not sure I even can do artwork. I've done some, but I'm lonely and very, very tired. I spend much of my time wading through Medicare red tape so that I can get the 10 medications and vitamins that I need to live at a reasonable price. I'm dizzy 24 hrs a day. I take medicines that allow me to go to sleep, stay awake, for thyroid, depression, ADHD and so on. Before I was medicated, my brain woke up 200 times a night, never allowing me to go into REM sleep. I spent most of the day sleeping. So now, I can stay awake, but I'm not productive.

I'm eligible for the TRACS program, the ART program and have a bus pass. I found out after taking ART once to my doctor's office, (a taxi program) that since I'm only Tier 1, it cost $15.00 one way! The cab driver took half of my tickets, leaving me only $10. She said I could pay the extra $5 in cash! But I wasn't going to pay another $15 for a cab ride home, so I walked across a busy highway to a bus stop a mile from the doctor's office, waited for the bus and transferred to the one that goes to my apartment complex.

The last time I visited my neighbor, a retired RN in Knightdale, I was driven by a woman who drove the TRACS minibus who said she'd love to drive a bus full-time. I've tried to track her down to refer her to the mayors in the Knightdale area, but haven't been able to reach her. I thought that with her experience and the help of the Small Business Administration, they should be able to get a bus line going in the Wendell, Knightdale area.

I'm trying to be productive. I wish I could find a friend or a life partner. I'd like to take an art class. I think my Guardian sees me as a black hole that she pours money into. But without 'seed money' I can't do anything. I'm at my wits end!

Thanks for listening, I have so few people that I can talk to...

Mass Transportation

kenerika — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:05:26 -0500

"Citizen Panel wants trains for $2 billion, more buses." (See Bruce Siceloff's February 5, 2008 N&O article).

SOMETHING FOR "MASS TRANSPORTATION PLANNERS" TO THINK ABOUT:

I lived and suffered traffic jams in Raleigh for years. I now live in Switzerland (has about the same land-mass as North Carolina but with big mountains).

A thought: Traffic Jams are for people that are forced to drive their car where they want to go (pretty much describes all of North Carolina)!

1. The Swiss can get almost anywhere via Rail or Bus (and sometimes by boat). Many Swiss don't buy a car because gas is too expensive (Swiss Gas cost is about four (4) times that of Raleigh Gas cost). In the US, Gas is only going UP!

2. By car I live up to 70 minutes (and sometimes more) from the airport depending on traffic conditions (sound familiar?).

3. Using "Mass Transportation", the airport is 30 minutes away AND the train goes UNDER the airport (this is INSIDE the airport). For your information: The airport was first, so tunnels were dug under the airport.

4. The Mass Transportation described above is true in most European countries!!

THE LAST RTP Rail plan I heard about, for example: "Mass Transportation Planners" got you to Morrisville by Rail (miles from the airport).

SO, IF you don't speak up, you will get what you get, it will fail because of the lack of operating income and will be forced to stop running - BUT, GUESS WHO WILL PAY FOR ALL THIS? THE TAX PAYERS of course!!!

MASS TRANSPORTATION IS NEEDED - SO MAKE SURE THE PLANNING COMMISSION GETS IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME! (They might come to Switzerland and see Mass Transportation in action.)

Mass Transit

rick — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 19:02:58 -0500

Improving roads, creating light rail, and adding more buses doesn't overcome the basic reason why a transportation problem exists. The basic problem is the distance people travel to work, school, and shopping. The basic solution is rethinking zoning/building approval processes to encourage higher density population centers co-located with work and shopping centers so that foot-traffic is feasible. While the local municipals should acquire right-of-ways for light rail between current living to employment hubs, the key is to stop the suburbian and exurbian sprawl by building up more than out.

Few people will drive their vehicle 5-10 miles to a depot, wait 5-15 minutes for a light rail/bus, and then sweat out what could be a five to fifteen minute walk to our final destination in all kinds of weather.

1. The RTP and other large-scale work campuses promote the use of cars. High density/high rise condos should be interspersed within this areas bringing a fair amount of workers much closer to their jobs.

2. The requirements for major intersection single-story strip shopping malls should be relooked at and the "real" community style buildings should be encouraged: large retailers on first level, offices on the second level, and affordable living quarters on the third-to-fith levels. Some people might have to only go downstairs to work or for groceries instead of tying up the streets with more vehicles.

There are many more solutions, but all I ever read about is still the same old scenarios of still trying to move a lot of people at the same time over the same territory.

Let me see if I have this right...

rhodent — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:06:42 -0500

No one uses mass transit because we haven't invested in it; therefore, we shouldn't invest in it because no one uses it?

I think part of the problem

orulz — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:44:36 -0500

I think part of the problem is that we (Americans) wanted to have our cake and eat it too. We sold ourselves on the convenience of the car lifestyle when it's turning out to not be economically sustainable at all.

The massive frenzy of freeway construction in the decades following the end of World War II was made possible by the relative strength of the US economy and the dollar at the time compared to elsewhere in the world.

We convinced ourselves that this was the "way of the future" - everyone gets their suburban 1/4 acre, everybody gets to live wherever they want, no matter how far it is from work, and still enjoy a quick, hassle free commute on the freeways... It's alluring, because driving gives you absolute control over where you go, gives you your own personal bubble of space around you, shuttles you from door to door in air-conditioned comfort, lets you live further away with more privacy and more land.

But now in 2008 you hear it on the news like a broken record - America's infrastructure is crumbling! A lot of the infrastructure we built in the 1960s and 70s is approaching the end of its life, and needs massive reconstruction. But these days when China and India (with what, 2.5 billion people between them?) are rapidly modernizing, and their economies are growing at breakneck pace, and driving up prices for petroleum, steel, concrete... Domestic population increase and the resulting increase in the cost of land comes in to play too... then throw in a war or two, and a credit crisis driven by rampant consumerisum (perpetuated by sustained insanely low interest rates) and a desire for - no, a God-given Right to, that 1/4 acre lot and a magnificent home stocked with premium furniture, electronics, and stainless steel appliances, regardless of whether we can really afford it or not. At the end of the day, this means a continually more crushing burden of debt, which means a substantially weaker dollar, and all of a sudden - we can't afford to build infrastructure like we could back in the '60s!

Now what does this have to do with transit?

Well, this suburban lifestyle that we're so enamored with shoulders us with a lot of extra infrastructure to maintain. Miles of roads, sewers, highways, water mains... much more costly to keep up than the compact development patterns we had before the war.

If it's not too late already - which it may be - we need to start putting the brakes on the expansion of suburbia and turn to densification of our inner cities. The way to do this is to stop directing so much of our infrastructure dollars towards road expansion. LET THE TRAFFIC GET WORSE, and people will naturally turn to alternatives as congestion gets out of hand.

We need to develop in such a way that the infrastructure required to sustain us is not exhorbitantly expensive to construct and maintain. And that means - gasp - building a city where we don't have to lug around a 4,000 pound hunk of steel with us each and every time we go somewhere, since that 4,000 pound hunk of steel puts a heck of a lot more strain on a road than do a 170lb bike + rider, or a 150lb pedestrian.

GOOD TRANSIT IS NECESSARY to make these development patterns work. To me it's a shame that we squandered so much of our decades of prosperity in the mid-20th century building ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but highways in pursuit of a utopia of auto-oriented convenience that could never be, but the longer we wait before starting to turn around, the worse off we'll be in the long run. Folks like Hartgen don't see that the cycle of building more and more roads will leads us to a dead-end future.

Maybe sometime later I'll stop preaching, and instead talk about what form I think transit should take in the Triangle...

transit in the triangle

john b — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:41:19 -0500

The primary factors with respect to planning long term transportation system needs are relatively simple to figure by numbers. There are traffic forecasts and projections of daily round trips, often 10-20 years into the future. There are assessments made based on links between these projections and the master plans for the area under study to determine which highways will come under severe stress, and which urban mass transit corridors deserve scrutiny. There are growth projections linked to economic forecasts, desirability of living in the area, and other palpable factors which are also linked to the traffic projections and master plan studies. Typically, there are also connections drawn with respect to commuter behavior, and the cost-time balance which most juggle with respect to how they want to live their lives.

Needless to say, some of the factors mentioned can vary considerably over time, and are particularly dependent on the state of the economy (unemployment rates), individual preferences, commuting choices borne of necessity, and changes in the private sector with respect to what is negotiated between management and the work force.

So it's quite a complicated stew that's being brewed when experts, try as they might, attempt to figure the transportation needs of a metropolitan area. I think it is important to recognize the following about commuter traffic and prospective growth in the Triangle:

1. The average daily commute is still less than half an hour one way. This single truth does not bode well for long term growth and heavy capital expenditures on mass transit systems. It has been proven time and again that unless commute times increase to the 45 minute - 1 hour range, most commuters will not consider leaving their cars in the driveway.

2. The density of employment centers in the Triangle are not large enough to justify mass transit, particulary rail, in most cases. There is often mention of RTP as a prime target for mass transit options. But given that the number of jobs at RTP hovers around 40,000; that alot of these jobs are high paying (meaning that employees have comfortable cars and can afford gas); and that the private companies in RTP have several options available to help their employees negotiate traffic (everything from flex time to allowing 1-2 days working from a home office per week), the risks of heavy capital expenditures for systems that are underused are high.

3. I-40, that bane of commuter existence in this area, is the lone east-west high speed traffic link through the area, and extends statewide. With the extensive growth in Johnston County, and the affordability of homes in locations east and southeast of Raleigh, this corridor will continue to exhibit the absolute worst traffic in the area for many years to come.

4. The cost of gas and commuting time are becoming more significant factors for people who have low to medium paying jobs, yet commute fairly long distances. Mass transit improvements to aid people in this position do not ultimately pay off, one reason being that their homes are often on the periphery of urban areas (ie Youngsville, Johnston County, Mebane).

5. The area will continue to be an attractive one for people from northern states. There is so much here, culturally and professionally, and the weather is excellent. As long as the area is affordable, particularly with respect to housing, the influx of out-of-state people in search of better quality of life will continue. Correspondingly, the developers and real estate industry in this area are extremely powerful - controlled growth is not an option here. Attempts to try to even have a serious conversation about this result in awful proposals like the ttax when a house is sold.

The Special Transit Advisory Commission should look at implementing an iterative approach by which some less expensive hwg improvement measures are tried, then evaluated, prior to looking at spending billions of dollars on transportation improvements. The most effective of these are the following:

1. I-40 HOV lanes - With the tool of the Internet available to most for carpooling connections, there should be strong consideration towards making the left lane on I-40 in both directions between Chapel Hill and I-440 and for 10 miles along I-40 between Smithfield and I-440 either HOV 2 or HOV 3. The hue and cry due to such a plan would be extreme at first, but groups would quickly form that would travel together to major employment centers, in return for the 10-20 minutes saved in each direction. The HOV time should be limited from 7AM-9AM in the morning, and 4PM-6PM in the evening, then the lane opened to all drivers. This measure would lessen the number of cars by the hundreds on this thoroughfare.

2. Ramp metering - This simple tool does much to control the amount of "platooning" that occurs when cars are entering a freeway from a ramp. Used to great effect in the Washington DC area along portions of I-66, this concept allows for much better traffic flow on the main route. Would suggest this along I-40 through the RTP interchanges, and other designated areas as results of traffic studies.

3. Other TSM measures - Sychronization of traffic lights through main corridors (Route 1, Route 70 south of Raleigh, NC 54) should be targeted and implemented for the primary peak hour directions. These relatively low cost improvements would reap dividends to commuters on these routes. Although unpopular, restrictions on truck traffic (18 wheelers) during peak hours wouldn't be a bad idea.

In terms of highway improvements, the most significant deficiencies occur on I-40, due to the extreme amount of traffic from both commuters and "pass-through" traffic. The singular greatest impact on this problem would involve the completion of I-540 around the south side of Raleigh through to Route 1, the I-64 bypass, or at least to I-40. This measure was needed years ago; with the expansion in Johnston County, its needed even more now. Lesser transportation improvement projects being considered by NCDOT should be shelved in favor of this project.

With respect to mass transit, the FTA was correct in their conclusion that $800 Million for a rail system was not justified. Improvements to the bus system should precede plans for rail systems in this area. Instead of spending $5-15 Million for bus system improvements, invest more money in these proposals. Commuter satellite parking lots in perimeter communities (Smithfield, Hillsborough, Chapel Hill) with express bus destinations at key employment areas are a much better investment for this area than rail. Combined with HOV lane restrictions, these improvements have reaped dividends in urban areas. Also, the advent of private large van - mini bus companies to provide services from commuter satellite lots has supplemented the bus systems in many urban areas. The HOV requirement is critical to the success of beefing up the bus system.

Rail or light rail systems are not the answer for the Triangle. The density of the employment centers in this area is not adequate, and the primarily suburban style of living here is not conducive to justification of the heavy expenditures to build such a system, both with respect to right-of-way purchases and construction costs. You could have the best bus system in the US for what would be spent on rail. It is more than likely that as the area expands, the employment centers will diversify to the perimeter. This was, in fact, the trend in the Washington, DC area in the 1990's, where the planners started having to use the term "reverse commuting" to describe the diversification of employment centers.

A light rail system through one part of Charlotte is nice, but 12,000 riders a day will not mean much for an area of this size. The previous ridership forecasts for the ill fated TTA system were along the lines of 22,000 riders per day. As a matter of comparison, one spoke of the DC Metrorail system carries more than 300,000 riders per day.

While it is certainly important for there to be an entity which is considering long term transportation needs, there should be a litmus test of practicality and a committment to making changes which result in the most impact for the least amount of public funds spent. The looming infrastructure crisis in this country, as well as the continued need for school and health system improvements locally should have a place at the table when these decision makers are considering the best common good for all of us living in the Triangle.

changing transportation behavior

george wilberg — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:59:23 -0500

Absolutely an incredible post! I could not have said it any better if I had tried.

My wife and I decided on a recently planned trip to Orlando, Florida to take the Amtrak train. We are tired of the highway congestion on our former trips to Florida and the cost of gas in our compact SUV still is not like a Toyota Prius-maybe 22 mpg or so on a trip. So from Southern Pines, NC to Orlando, Fl round trip it will be $164 including tax. Then we pick up a rental car for the week for only $131! We also rented a small compact that gets 35 to 40 mpg!

When gas really starts to hurt (and it will) then BEHAVIOR will change. Europe has a great history, great usage, inexpensive,and very efficient rail transport system. But gas there is about triple what we pay!

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts in this venue! A GREAT JOB!

transit

Carol Frey — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:51:38 -0500

My husband and I are living in Washington DC temporarily and regularly driving back home to Raleigh. On weekdays I use trains and buses. The traffic is so bad here I can't imagine driving everywhere. (Still there is no rail service to Dulles Airport and the federal government has pulled the plug on that too.) With sprawling development, just like the Triangle's, congestion is far worse than when we lived in the same area during the '80s. Be prepared for gridlock if we continue relying on buses for public transportation. They have to use the same clogged highways as cars do. And if you want to see gridlocked high-occupancy-vehicle lanes, y'all come by and stay awhile.

We can't pave our way out of

Visitor — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:32:00 -0500

We can't pave our way out of our traffic troubles. Every time a new road has been built, the resulting sprawl has led to ever more congestion. Experience has shown that expanding roads simply doesn't work. The region has lately seen a move towards more dense development - especially along its key corridors and in concentrated urban centers. That's the ideal environment for a train system, and it didn't exist the last time plans were drawn up. The city could start with something simple - a short train line between the RBC center and downtown Raleigh, with several stops along the way. It's the perfect area to develop and refine a system - development is dense and includes a variety of difference uses, plus the people who live along that route are already likely to be making those trips. It's also a small enough route that it is affordable. If it works well enough, then it can be expanded. If it truly fails, then the amount of money lost will not be as great as if it were a regional system. The same concept could easily be applied between Duke and downtown Durham. If the two are independently successful, then they could be connected - with a stop at the airport for good measure. One thing that should be ignored from the outset is any suggestion that people who live in North Raleigh and Cary will ride a train to RTP. If for no other reason than because RTP is so spread out(and that's hardly the only reason), that idea is doomed to failure.

Visits to any major city

Visitor — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:00:00 -0500

Visits to any major city confirm rail/light rail is the way to go. Two concerns I've had through the years while rail has been considered are 1) direct service to RDU has not been a high priority, and 2) direct service to the Stadium / Arena / Fairgrounds complexes don't show up on the map. How much is transportation from RDU to the new convention center going to be? $30, $40, $45? Rail direct from Lambert Field (St. Louis airport) 20 miles to downtown St. Louis is $2.50, and you don't have to tip. I guess I'm skeptical anything will ever get off the ground on this. It's a huge undertaking. It would take an individual Steve Stroud-esque to make it happen. If not for him, the Wolfpack would still be playing in Reynolds and Canada would not know Raleigh exists.

Changing transportation behavior

sarah mcintee — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:44:00 -0500

As much as I think swift, frequent, and sexy rapid transit might attract a crowd, when we look at this mass transit problem, as a solution to global warming and energy conservation, the critical path to enduring success is influencing transportation BEHAVIOR in individuals. We want people to use transit daily, in a regular, consistent, fashion.We want people to feel secure and comfortable with the service. The only way to get this change in behavior is to make both MASS TRANSIT MORE ATTRACTIVE while also making PRIVATE CAR USE LESS ATTRACTIVE. FREQUENCY:The first clients to get is the daily 7-9 AM, 11AM-2PM, 4-6PM commuters to use a convenient, comfortable alternative to riding in their own comfy cars.This means something that comes by, for RUSH HOUR, AT LEAST EVERY 10 MINUTES. SECURITY During the rest of the day and evening, if the bus isn't there every 15-20 minutes, then the transportation client who is running errands, shopping, and going to appointments, school, rec centers, and public facilities, will choose the car over the bus or train. This is because. with a measure of personal schedule uncertainty, no one wants to be stuck anywhere (like if delayed) without timely transit back home again. LOCATION OF STATIONS: This frequent service would also need to be at comfortable transit stops scattered among centrally located, safe, well-lit, with benches and rain protection at park and ride lots and apartment complexes. Hand in hand with a successful transit system is higher density living. For those who are living more spread out, the park-and-ride option needs to be VERY ATTRACTIVE. COST: A successful transit system that is free is more attractive to use. We don't want clients to have "exact- change-anxiety," nor the "not-enough-time-to-stand-in-line-for-a-ticket-or-punchcard-anxiety." The cost of maintaining rail beds and bridges is much less than maintaining our 4-10 lane highways. If we want to save money, we can start by charging heavy trucks more to use the roads, with freight rail the more attractive option. Train cars and the salaries for transit workers, is where the high costs are. You have these with buses also. The tradeoff comes when it may take fewer people to run trains than buses. If the service is not frequent throughout the day and fitting the irregular habits of the individual commuter, then no transit system, bus or train. will have the success that is so badly needed. This solution must be critically designed to get people to change their transportation behaviors.

Transit?

JeffDeWitt — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:35:47 -0500

We don't need to spend more on mass transit, we need to be upgrading our roads to handle traffic better. As Jon pointed out very few people actually use mass transit and all the buses and trains in the world aren't going to do anything to relieve congestion or reduce pollution.

As was pointed out during the train debate if we spent a billion dollars to build a train the same people not riding the buses won't be riding the train.

The key to reducing congestion is to build and expand our roads.

Begging the question?

Jon — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:32:49 -0500

The questions assume that Triangle governments should do something more about mass transit that we should pay (more) for. But when UNC-Charlotte Professor of Transportation Studies David Hartgen studied traffic issues in NC, he found that Raleigh and Durham spent on 73 and 49 percent of their highway budgets on effective congestion-alleviating measures, the rest going toward mass transit, which is used at best by 3 percent of commuters -- and when traffic congestion here is forecast to double in the next 25 years. Hartgen also found that just better allocation of highway funding would alleviate the problems. (Reference.)

Bringing mass transit to the Triangle

ctmiller — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:28:37 -0500

A Transit Advisory Commission is mapping out proposals to extend rail, streetcar and expanded bus service across Wake, Durham and Orange counties — and into bustling bedroom communities nearby. Its members want to hear from you:

What kinds of mass transit make the most sense for the Triangle? Buses? Street cars? Trains? Light rail? A combination of these?

Which would you be most apt to ride? What alternatives seem least appealing?

How should we pay for an expanded transit system?

A Transit Advisory Commission is mapping out proposals to extend rail, streetcar and expanded bus service across Wake, Durham and Orange counties — and…